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	<title>Comments on: The Gay Marriage Debate: Brought to you by Contraception</title>
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		<title>By: susan zuptich</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-4/#comment-141813</link>
		<dc:creator>susan zuptich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Mar 2013 04:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-141813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I want to share this on facebook.  It is more important today then it was in Aug.2012]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to share this on facebook.  It is more important today then it was in Aug.2012</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-1/#comment-88118</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 21:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-88118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The United States was founded on the ideals of freedom of religion. How does banning gay people from getting a marriage license at City Hall help further that ideal? The United States was founded on the idea that all of it&#039;s citizens are equal and deserve the same protection of all the laws in every state. How does banning gay people from accessing the laws of marriage support that value? Our nation stands for freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, banning gay citizens from marriage is in direct opposition to the values we hold dear. It&#039;s taken a while for our nation to understand that, but in the end we will do the right thing and extend marriage to gay Americans. It&#039;s great to see this change!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The United States was founded on the ideals of freedom of religion. How does banning gay people from getting a marriage license at City Hall help further that ideal? The United States was founded on the idea that all of it&#8217;s citizens are equal and deserve the same protection of all the laws in every state. How does banning gay people from accessing the laws of marriage support that value? Our nation stands for freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, banning gay citizens from marriage is in direct opposition to the values we hold dear. It&#8217;s taken a while for our nation to understand that, but in the end we will do the right thing and extend marriage to gay Americans. It&#8217;s great to see this change!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-4/#comment-88009</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-88009</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are wrong on the law.  Marriage is indeed a civil right, as the Supreme Court ruled in Loving v. Virginia.  Under the U.S. Constitution, it is possible for rights not to be honored in every circumstance and for every person, but it is the responsibility of those who seek to deny a right (in this case people of the same sex from marrying each other) to prove their case.  The legal assumption would be that gays may enter into civil marriage.  Lower courts have already ruled in this direction, in several cases.  In addition, many of the judges in these cases were appointed by conversative Republican presidents.

Your arguments about procreation being the primary purpose of marriage are by now tired and old.  Courts have already ruled those to be fatuous.  Were this a valid argument, two seventy-year-olds or an infertile couple would be barred from marriage.  Moreover, gay couples CAN procreate!  Surrogacy is a wonderful advance in medical science.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are wrong on the law.  Marriage is indeed a civil right, as the Supreme Court ruled in Loving v. Virginia.  Under the U.S. Constitution, it is possible for rights not to be honored in every circumstance and for every person, but it is the responsibility of those who seek to deny a right (in this case people of the same sex from marrying each other) to prove their case.  The legal assumption would be that gays may enter into civil marriage.  Lower courts have already ruled in this direction, in several cases.  In addition, many of the judges in these cases were appointed by conversative Republican presidents.</p>
<p>Your arguments about procreation being the primary purpose of marriage are by now tired and old.  Courts have already ruled those to be fatuous.  Were this a valid argument, two seventy-year-olds or an infertile couple would be barred from marriage.  Moreover, gay couples CAN procreate!  Surrogacy is a wonderful advance in medical science.</p>
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		<title>By: Pro-choice thought experiment &#124; CatholicVote.org</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-4/#comment-88002</link>
		<dc:creator>Pro-choice thought experiment &#124; CatholicVote.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 23:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-88002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 63 CommentsBreaking News: Cardinal Dolan to Give Closing Benediction at GOP Convention56 CommentsThe Gay Marriage Debate: Brought to you by Contraception45 CommentsTodd Akin said something stupid. Barack Obama supports after-birth abortion. Which is [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 63 CommentsBreaking News: Cardinal Dolan to Give Closing Benediction at GOP Convention56 CommentsThe Gay Marriage Debate: Brought to you by Contraception45 CommentsTodd Akin said something stupid. Barack Obama supports after-birth abortion. Which is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-4/#comment-87974</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-87974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, Steve, wow.  I read your demagoguery of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters (&quot;Studies say they&#039;re promiscuous!&quot;  &quot;They&#039;re bad parents!&quot;  &quot;Evil, evil, bad bad!&quot;) with disgust.  But, when I read in one of your comments that you are the beneficiary of our society&#039;s ability to rise above past demagoguery (&quot;Mongrel races!&quot;  &quot;Race mixing is communism!&quot;  &quot;The Bible forbids it!&quot;), I threw up a little.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Steve, wow.  I read your demagoguery of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters (&#8220;Studies say they&#8217;re promiscuous!&#8221;  &#8220;They&#8217;re bad parents!&#8221;  &#8220;Evil, evil, bad bad!&#8221;) with disgust.  But, when I read in one of your comments that you are the beneficiary of our society&#8217;s ability to rise above past demagoguery (&#8220;Mongrel races!&#8221;  &#8220;Race mixing is communism!&#8221;  &#8220;The Bible forbids it!&#8221;), I threw up a little.</p>
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		<title>By: Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-1/#comment-87962</link>
		<dc:creator>Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-87962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, marriage is fundamental to our survival. It provides stability for couples. It helps protect couples. It provides legal benefits. Married people are more likely to depend on each other and less likely to depend on the state for assistance. It&#039;s odd that someone that would have been banned from marrying the person that he loves just a few decades ago, has decided to join a campaign to try to ban others from that same right that he enjoys. Better look at what the Supreme Court wrote, and stop trying to make arguments that they never made. Marriage is about love, support, and compassion. The world needs more of that, not less.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, marriage is fundamental to our survival. It provides stability for couples. It helps protect couples. It provides legal benefits. Married people are more likely to depend on each other and less likely to depend on the state for assistance. It&#8217;s odd that someone that would have been banned from marrying the person that he loves just a few decades ago, has decided to join a campaign to try to ban others from that same right that he enjoys. Better look at what the Supreme Court wrote, and stop trying to make arguments that they never made. Marriage is about love, support, and compassion. The world needs more of that, not less.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Skojec</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-4/#comment-87952</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Skojec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-87952</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David - I ask you to consider the possibility that this discussion is about something bigger than what marriage subjectively is &quot;for most people.&quot; I think it behooves us, when looking at this from a policy/morality standpoint, to be a bit less solipsistic about it. For most people, yes, they marry out of love. But from the perspective of both the Church and the government (insofar as the government gets involved with incentivizing marriage at all) that love exists to serve a purpose, namely, bringing about the existence of new people. Children are the concrete good that come from a marriage. From a religious perspective, they are souls who can love God, serve Him, and be with Him in heaven. From a societal standpoint, children are new citizens. They provide the animating principle of a nation. They are its workers, its educators, its leaders, and perhaps most importantly (to the government) its taxpayers. If it weren&#039;t for these contributions, I can&#039;t see why the government would be involved with marriage at all. Philosophically, I&#039;m not even sure it should be involved. But since it is, those advocating for change need to make the business case, as it were, as to why it&#039;s a good idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; I ask you to consider the possibility that this discussion is about something bigger than what marriage subjectively is &#8220;for most people.&#8221; I think it behooves us, when looking at this from a policy/morality standpoint, to be a bit less solipsistic about it. For most people, yes, they marry out of love. But from the perspective of both the Church and the government (insofar as the government gets involved with incentivizing marriage at all) that love exists to serve a purpose, namely, bringing about the existence of new people. Children are the concrete good that come from a marriage. From a religious perspective, they are souls who can love God, serve Him, and be with Him in heaven. From a societal standpoint, children are new citizens. They provide the animating principle of a nation. They are its workers, its educators, its leaders, and perhaps most importantly (to the government) its taxpayers. If it weren&#8217;t for these contributions, I can&#8217;t see why the government would be involved with marriage at all. Philosophically, I&#8217;m not even sure it should be involved. But since it is, those advocating for change need to make the business case, as it were, as to why it&#8217;s a good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandy</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-4/#comment-87950</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-87950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.&quot; Chief Justice Earl Warren, Loving v Virginia, 1967.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.&#8221; Chief Justice Earl Warren, Loving v Virginia, 1967.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-1/#comment-87947</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-87947</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Exactly Steve, laws protect rights, not define them.  From a cultural perspective, laws lie on the foundation of a given culture&#039;s ethics and morals.  Societies typically govern themselves by their respective ethical standards and only enshrine some of them into public law.  The fundamental understanding is rights do not come from the law-making bodies; they come from a society&#039;s moral code.  Governments are simply the tools it uses to ensure public protection of those inherent rights.

The United States is historically and traditionally a Judeo-Christian nation.  Consequently, it would stand to reason its public laws would reflect that moral code, which is to uphold and protect traditional marriage and reject all other forms.

A contraceptive mentality effectively regroups heterosexual relationships into the same category as homosexual ones.  Remove children from the equation, and the two relationships become nearly indistinguishable, hence, the current face of our culture.

The argument about polygamy and bigamy is spot on.  If a person can accept one type of non-traditional marriage, the natural consequence likely should be that they accept other non-traditional types, too.  If they do not, they are logically inconsistent.  To me, such would indicate a different underlying motive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly Steve, laws protect rights, not define them.  From a cultural perspective, laws lie on the foundation of a given culture&#8217;s ethics and morals.  Societies typically govern themselves by their respective ethical standards and only enshrine some of them into public law.  The fundamental understanding is rights do not come from the law-making bodies; they come from a society&#8217;s moral code.  Governments are simply the tools it uses to ensure public protection of those inherent rights.</p>
<p>The United States is historically and traditionally a Judeo-Christian nation.  Consequently, it would stand to reason its public laws would reflect that moral code, which is to uphold and protect traditional marriage and reject all other forms.</p>
<p>A contraceptive mentality effectively regroups heterosexual relationships into the same category as homosexual ones.  Remove children from the equation, and the two relationships become nearly indistinguishable, hence, the current face of our culture.</p>
<p>The argument about polygamy and bigamy is spot on.  If a person can accept one type of non-traditional marriage, the natural consequence likely should be that they accept other non-traditional types, too.  If they do not, they are logically inconsistent.  To me, such would indicate a different underlying motive.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Skojec</title>
		<link>http://www.catholicvote.org/the-gay-marriage-debate-brought-to-you-by-contraception/comment-page-1/#comment-87945</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Skojec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=35130#comment-87945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve already answered your question, but you&#039;ve apparently chosen to ignore my response. 

I do stand by my words: sterile sex is unnatural sex. It is sex divorced from its natural, biological end, which is procreation. This doesn&#039;t mean that every sexual act must result in conception to be legitimate, it means that every sexual act must be open to the possibility of conception to be properly ordered, or, put another way, natural. 

This is why Catholics (those who care about following Church teaching, anyway) practice NFP rather than use contraceptives during times where pregnancy wouldn&#039;t be the best idea. They abstain during fertile times, or, in more serious cases, may abstain altogether, knowing that if they miscalculate or have an extra glass of wine and throw caution to the wind, the baby that will result is one they will welcome, even if it&#039;s one they didn&#039;t seek to conceive. As a man I know with a particularly large family likes to say, &quot;All our children are planned and wanted: planned by God, and wanted by us.&quot;

Sexual acts that by their nature or by direct intervention are rendered sterile are divorced from the possibility of conception or willingness to accept it should it occur. They are not open to life. They are sterile, in a total sense of the word. It&#039;s about sex only, and conception is excluded from the equation.

Infertility is not, in and of itself, sterile. Plenty of infertile couples desire conception and are open to life. And couples who for some reason (illness, old age, medically-necessary hysterectomy, etc.) continue to correspond by their actions to God&#039;s design for human sexuality are certainly not guilty of any unnatural act. They do not voluntarily seek infertility, or render their sexual intimacy sterile. It is so because of external factors. 

Those who know and understand Catholic theology know and understand that intention is a critical component of human action. Whether it is the priest on the altar intending to consecrate the host (if he does not so intend, it is not consecrated) or the couple intending to render their marital relations sterile, intention matters in the assessment of moral or immoral acts. And outcomes are affected as well. Which is why there is a world of difference between a couple using contraception, which is an artificially imposed barrier to conception, and a couple using NFP, which simply takes advantage of the not-always-fertile nature of human sexuality. The latter requires self-denial and sacrifice. The former is selfish, and gratification seeking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve already answered your question, but you&#8217;ve apparently chosen to ignore my response. </p>
<p>I do stand by my words: sterile sex is unnatural sex. It is sex divorced from its natural, biological end, which is procreation. This doesn&#8217;t mean that every sexual act must result in conception to be legitimate, it means that every sexual act must be open to the possibility of conception to be properly ordered, or, put another way, natural. </p>
<p>This is why Catholics (those who care about following Church teaching, anyway) practice NFP rather than use contraceptives during times where pregnancy wouldn&#8217;t be the best idea. They abstain during fertile times, or, in more serious cases, may abstain altogether, knowing that if they miscalculate or have an extra glass of wine and throw caution to the wind, the baby that will result is one they will welcome, even if it&#8217;s one they didn&#8217;t seek to conceive. As a man I know with a particularly large family likes to say, &#8220;All our children are planned and wanted: planned by God, and wanted by us.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sexual acts that by their nature or by direct intervention are rendered sterile are divorced from the possibility of conception or willingness to accept it should it occur. They are not open to life. They are sterile, in a total sense of the word. It&#8217;s about sex only, and conception is excluded from the equation.</p>
<p>Infertility is not, in and of itself, sterile. Plenty of infertile couples desire conception and are open to life. And couples who for some reason (illness, old age, medically-necessary hysterectomy, etc.) continue to correspond by their actions to God&#8217;s design for human sexuality are certainly not guilty of any unnatural act. They do not voluntarily seek infertility, or render their sexual intimacy sterile. It is so because of external factors. </p>
<p>Those who know and understand Catholic theology know and understand that intention is a critical component of human action. Whether it is the priest on the altar intending to consecrate the host (if he does not so intend, it is not consecrated) or the couple intending to render their marital relations sterile, intention matters in the assessment of moral or immoral acts. And outcomes are affected as well. Which is why there is a world of difference between a couple using contraception, which is an artificially imposed barrier to conception, and a couple using NFP, which simply takes advantage of the not-always-fertile nature of human sexuality. The latter requires self-denial and sacrifice. The former is selfish, and gratification seeking.</p>
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